Florida Palm Coast LandMar is very quiet because there’s Not Much to Say
What’s happening at Matanzas? Why is LandMar so quiet? What roll does Hampton Golf play?
Palm Coast, Florida – July 13, 2008 – (Updated August 13, 2008) – Palm Coast real estate developer LandMar Group has been pretty quiet lately. But GoToby.com still gets questions, particularly about Matanzas, Hampton Golf, and Pelican Bay. I got a chance to talk with Jim Cullis, who heads up LandMar’s local operations about what is happening.
It helps to understand who the players are. Developers tend to create different legal entities for their various projects. This isolation makes financing easier to obtain and prevents one project’s failure from bringing down other projects. It also makes it harder for us to figure out who owns what. To the best of my knowledge, this is the structure of LandMar and related entities.
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LandMar is wholly owned by Crescent Resources which is a joint venture of Duke Energy and the Morgan Stanley Real Estate Fund.
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Crescent owns the Grand Haven Golf Course.
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(Updated) The three courses of The Grand Club (Pines, Cypress, and Matanzas) are owned by The Grand Club LLC, which is owned by Crescent and Hampton Golf. Hampton Golf appears for the first time on a Grand Club LLC ;public filing dated April 28, 2007. A representative of Hampton Golf claims their ownership percentage is 20%.
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Crescent also owns The Reserve LLC (Grand Landings)
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Crescent owns Robert Road LLC (undeveloped land on either side of Roberts Rd near Colbert and SR 100)
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Crescent owns Grand Woods Developers LLC (land adjacent to Matanzas course for future development)
Neither LandMar nor Crescent own Hampton Golf. Hampton Golf operates LandMar and Crescent golf courses, including Grand Haven and The Grand Club, under a management contract. Hampton Golf is headed by MG Orender, a neighbor and long time friend of LandMar’s founder, Ed Burr. Burr is no longer associated with LandMar. Hampton Golf’s recent purchase of the Pelican Bay Courses in Daytona Beach is not related to LandMar or Crescent.
Jim Cullis tells me that LandMar’s current activity is focused on what makes sense in today’s market. That is the resale real estate market in Grand Haven and new home/lot sales in Grand Landing. LandMar still plans to develop the property adjacent to Matanzas when the market justifies the investment. The same is true for the Roberts Road property. LandMar is no longer involved with the development of the old Lehigh Cement Plant site (on Colbert Lane) into a marina. That site is being developed by Bob Million, who owns the property.
With regard to the delayed renovation of the Matanzas golf course, Jim could only say that it’s still in his plans and budget to begin work later this year. However, he was not willing to commit, noting that the current state of the real estate development market remains tenuous. The Grand Haven course is currently closed for renovation, including new greens and reconstructed bunkers. The Grand Haven renovation was originally budgeted for 2009 but was moved forward due to the deteriorating condition of the course.
Grand Haven Renovation
If the Grand Havens renovation was already budgeted for 2009 then why do we have to continue paying monthly dues while the course is closed for 4 to 5 months.
AG
Matanzas Woods
Regarding comments from Landmar and their continued non answers as to when the course will be reopened. Next year, maybe, is not an answer. Could you ask Jim Cullis the following, and have him think hard before he answers because he may be asked to complete an affidavit down the road.
Question 1.
Who do I contact at the tax assessors office to get an abatement due to the fact that a big corporation has effected my property value by, in essence, draining the lake behind my house thereby changing it’s perceived value? It’s not enough that the RE market is horrible and we are probably in a recession and homes that are selling are selling at short sale, foreclosure levels. Let’s add to that by taking away what the neighborhood was built around, why some people chose to live there and why some people paid more to be there, on the course, and close it (indefinitely). Kind of like the Queen Mary in Long Beach, CA harbor. Yeah, it’s a ship and it floats, but it doesn’t go anywhere so I hope you like the view.
Question 2.
How would I market a house as being on a golf course with all that makes a golf lot house attractive with no active golf course (disclaimer; my house is not currently for sale), since the golf course is closed, has been for a couple of years and will be closed for the foreseeable future?
Question 3.
How long before a lawsuit gets mentioned? Before you say the lot owners and home owners directly effected by this have no shot at a lawsuit, the owners in and around Matanzas Woods have been materially effected by this. I paid approximately $30,000 more to be on that golf course, and other lots on the course sold $30,000, to $40,000 higher than an average lot not on the course. Why would a potential buyer choose to buy a home or lot in Matanzas Woods, if golf was a part of their decision to look in a neighborhood, when they can go to Cypress Knolls, Pine Lakes, Grand Haven and soon Palm Harbor? Its not enough that the market is holding a lot of people hostage, but Landmar, Hampton, Crescent’s indecision, or decision, to do nothing adds the coup de grace.
So I pay higher taxes for the benefit of what may come down the road? When 5-10 years from now? I can’t sell my house as readily because there are better alternatives to a closed course. Making an investment and dealing with the uncertainties of the market is one thing, but having a huge company come in overnight and change the personality of a neighborhood, and add to that a local government that couldn’t care less……when does the ride stop, I want to get off.
regarding my last email
I would appreciate any response to my questions from the previous email regarding Landmar or property taxes. Either from Landmar, Crescent, or Hampton and/or from local Palm Coast/Flagler County tax officals. The property tax problem is not specific to Matanzas Woods but the local taxing authority no doubt will raise the millage rates on all of our properties to offset Governor Christ, (despite the bad economy, housing bust, tightened lending practices, etc.) Specific to Matanzas is a golf conglomerate who couldn’t care less about our property values, and a local government that shares that sentiment since their priorities no longer include attracting new buyers, just fleecing the ones already here. I’m wrong you say? Then check the tax bills this year and tell me if they went down like your property values.
To Landmar, the status quo is not a plan, it’s a self serving farce. To Palm Coast/Flagler County taxing officials, now that my house has lost $100,000 in value over the last 2 1/2 years, do you think I can get a reduction in my property taxes this year? Pretty please.
Hampton Golf
Interesting article & comments by Sam.
Toby, if I understand the ownership/management pecking order, I guess Hampton could get the "boot" from ALL the Palm Coast courses that they manage at the whim of Crescent?
Well that’s happened to MG & his gang on several occasions in the past.
Golf I
Response
The responses from Landmar and the local taxing authority to my questions regarding Matanzas Woods and property taxes were to not respond (so far).
Generally, when someone doesn’t respond they are in agreement or they have no good counter for your argument.
I’m guessing the latter.
I agree and don’t agree
Toby,
This is great information, but as a resident in Matanzas Woods the handling of the situation has been pretty poor. Several of us have spoken with the developer on several occassions and are told how they would like to meet with us and how the want to always be a "good neighbor". They have never been able to meet with us, and at this point have left the condition of the course to deteriorate horribly. The grass is severly overgrown, trees were cut down and left to lay on what was once a fairway. Matanzas Woods is a golf course area and was the attraction for many who built here. At this point, it’s not and property values are obviously impacted.
Now, one can continue to use the "economy" excuse over and over. But the fact is that it is an excuse. And it’s gotten to a point of irresponsible business.
Jays response
I think Jay is on the money with his response. I wouldn’t mind hearing from other residents of Matanzas Woods. Toby, feel free, if that’s OK, to forward Jay my contact info. I think this has reached a point where a lawsuit is neccesary.
Golf Course/Golf course maintenance
I think that mantanzas woods is the best course that is owned by landmar or crescent or whoever you say owns it. It is the most challenging and nicest layout. Unfortunately we have not been able to play it at all because of the "real estate" market. A good golf course like Mantanzas should be able to sustain on its own and cover its cost if operated correctly. I understand the upgrade would cost some money but you could make it up.
They do need to get rid of Hampton Golf because they SUCK! Their courses are ran terrible and they should get another company in there to run them.
MIKE
regarding my last Email 2
Mantanzas Woods Golf Course
Hello Sam:
Thank you for the explanation.
What exactly is the FCUPTA? I only have our signed copies of the Palm Coast C&R which were signed and recorded July 1971 and the Florida Land Use Plan which also were signed and recorded dated same; is that what you mean? I also have the advertising promos’ from the Dr. J. Norman Young and the ITT Levitt era also and I can’t see or find that reference there either. Are you referencing sections 16. (b) or section 17. in the C&R;s or the 1974/75 Agreement with the FTC and ‘The Company’ I only have a 1970’s synopsis of The Agreement; do you have the Full FTC Agreement; if so, may I please see it for my historical pursuits and my record keeping? It would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Thanks,
George Edward Chuddy
chuddy at bestnetpc dot com
Florida Historic Heritage Application
Florida Historic Heritage Marker and Landmark Application.
Perhaps some Mantanzas Golf Club Area Resident or Residents may wish to look into applying to the State Historic Offices for the Florida Historic Heritage Marker and Landmark
Program. If so, we are Stewards for some early Dr. J. Norman Young Era , advertising, promotions, and information that may help add to the request for Historic Status for your area(s). Many are now one of a kinds, but, we’ll let you copy them should you pursue this . We’ve been working very closely with them and they are very nice, helpful, and very obliging.
Obviously we cannot speak for the Historic Review Committee if your Application would get approved, but, maybe it is worth a try.
Best of luck.
Regards,
George Edward Chuddy
chuddy at bestnet pc dot com .
Thank you Toby for letting us post this; Thank you very much.